8/17/2006

Giles Lyon

121 comments:

dharmabum said...

Unfocussed,TMI,IMHO. Interesting comparison with the Poons (thanks Painter).The outlining bothers me, a bit graphic-novel-not-in-a-good-way. I liked Poon's lozenge paintings back when.

devinlevin said...

how long can one person beat a dead horse?

zipthwung said...

Im not sure if its Stendhal syndrome or Stockholm syndrome but its never going to be stockhausen syndrome.

Unfocused? WHat about Pollock?

The thing about Pollock is you cant duplicate it - because no one is the same. I dont know about you but I could not step twice into the same river - and thats why we encrypt our pictures as "cryptomorphs".

Just as quantum factoring is making unbreakable codes, so too are painters creating unbreakable compositions.

Big red compositions.

Cross said...

I can't seem to 'suspend my disbelief' long enough to enjoy this type of cartoonish work. But painters like Trenton Doyle Hancock for example seem to take this as a reference point and push ahead to new extremes.

zipthwung said...

I like the edges (on the red). You can do that in photoshop using a brush with "wet edges". the thing about painting is you dont get the backlight like you do on the crt.

no-where-man said...

"Poppa's last Party" was hot i would hang it in my disco

dharmabum said...

Pollock: not a fan. Did what he was told. The critics were too involved- Myra Breckenridge syndrome. The hit was the all-over design, you could pick out parts if you wanted. This painting (from the jpeg)gives equal emphasis to the details and the all-over. Ambiguous but not in a teasing way. Surf & turf= prilosec.

zipthwung said...

Now I remember seeing a show of this stuff in 97. The only reason it sticks in my mind is a friend was excited because he knew him. You know how it is - you see someone doing well and you want to suck up and stuff. I guess dude didnt like my friend so much or whatever. It made me sad. Another time I went on a studio tour down on Essex street and Inka essenhigh had her studio down there and there was a dude doing enamel race cars on flat grounds. WHat happened to him?

dharmabum said...

>there was a dude doing enamel race cars on flat grounds. WHat happened to him?<

I saw that guy in Art School Confidential but I left the movie halfway through.

closeuup said...

The Stendahl syndrome was the answer to the the million dollar question on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. That's the only time I knew every answer, all the way to the top.

Has any art catalyzed an intense physical reaction for you--crying, heart racing, hives? Does a gasp count?

dharmabum said...

Alison Green at the Houston MFA gave a talk on their new Noguchi-designed garden. She showed a slide of a sculpture by a Texas artist named Godfrey (DeWitt?), a big heart-shaped leaf with a kind of pod attached. The whole audience gasped. Then she showed a close-up and it was made of bent rebar. Gasps again.

Rothko gets to me.
Oh, bite me.

kelli said...

What's the opposite of Stockholm syndrome? You know where you enjoy humiliating your captors. I guess there is a genre of work which is a fine art version of more interesting source material like graffiti. Maybe Dash Snow is a better version or at least less high vs. low.

Has any art catalyzed an intense physical reaction for you--crying, heart racing, hives? Does a gasp count?
I always hated Matthew Barney until I had a dream about one of his videos.

Cooky Blaha said...

player style

reminds me of funny garbage

zipthwung said...

I think if you work with rebar you should change your name to steel or forge or whatever.

Hi Im joe forge, and I work with iron. Catchy right?

sell in baby, sell in

vita sackville-west said...

I once passed out after seeing a Rodin sculpture of my mother...naked.

zipthwung said...

Clive Bell says theres an art emotion - kind of like a sixth sense. I don't have it, apparently. I don't see dead people, but I do die a little when I see work like this get crowed over. It lacks content. I love content. Who doesn't? thats why we wrap our gifts in packages and then unwrap them. That's why we hide our bodies behind clothes, even in the warmest weather.

If helen Frankenthaler is doing the dance of the seven veils, this painter is doing the dance of the seven squeeze bottles. Yeah, ok its art, but if Im going for modulated squiggles Id rather have pollock, who was alcoholic, and also seemed to be trying. I saw the last retrospective at the old moma, and it was great. i dont think he was lost at the end at all, no matter what he felt or what people thought. I liked the new stuff. I liked the stuff that gets away from black outlines, or "caligraphy" - the old stuff.

Frankenthaler married motherwell. Jesus christ. Motherwell's work is like a cotton rag lollypop. Giles is like a ADHD kid who has the set of 64 crayons but can't decide what color love is. No heart.

zipthwung said...

"The fact is that most art writers are cold; they're usually people who wouldn't be able to survive writing about anything else."

"As a kid I drew and drew obsessively. I went to museums, but I wanted the story. I couldn't see the art.

-Clement Greenberg

Well Frank settled down in the Valley
and hung his wild years
on a nail that he drove through
his wife's forehead
he sold used office furniture
out there on San Fernando Road
and assumed a $30,000 loan
at 15 1/4 % and put down payment
on a little two bedroom place
his wife was a spent piece of used jet trash
made good bloody marys
kept her mouth shut most of the time
had a little Chihuahua named Carlos
that had some kind of skin disease
and was totally blind. They had a
thoroughly modern kitchen
self-cleaning oven (the whole bit)
Frank drove a little sedan
they were so happy

One night Frank was on his way home
from work, stopped at the liquor store,
picked up a couple Mickey's Big Mouths
drank 'em in the car on his way
to the Shell station, he got a gallon of
gas in a can, drove home, doused
everything in the house, torched it,
parked across the street, laughing,
watching it burn, all Halloween
orange and chimney red then
Frank put on a top forty station
got on the Hollywood Freeway
headed north

Never could stand that dog

burn!

closeuup said...

i did that too. only works once

thriftstoremodernist said...

cartoons anybody? lets all go watch a paperrad dvd. all paintings are cartoons.

wade said...

all paintings are top ramen... therefore, all top ramen is cartoons, qed mf.

kalm james said...

I don’t mind this painting. Kind of like the anthropomorphic quality he’s going for with the pseudo “brushstrokes.” Wish he’s use a little less of the overly sweet gummie worm colors and get some acerbic gravy earth tones in there to balance the palette. Less fruit salad, more steak. Less ha-ha-ha, more oh crap, not that!

marisol77 said...

nasty explosion in a spaghetti factory... how about something with a little less cheese and a little more content?

no-where-man said...

"no" content is the new content.

kelli said...

Where am I going to stick my content now?

JpegCritic said...

I almost long to believe that nowhereman...
Content being so-last-season...
Bushy eyebrows are in.
Corporeal, messy and primordial.
A notion of bodily presence.
Like Fried's notion of embodiment...
Empathy.
Nothing like those fake agenda-tweezed
eyebrows of last season.

painterdog said...

zip for those who by some chance do not know who Tom Waits is, maybe you should credit him for that poetry.

I'll tip the newsboy
I'll get a shine
I'll ride this dream
to the end of the line
I'm goin places
I'll take a ride
Up to the Riverside
I'll take NY
I'll let it happen
I'll pop the cork
tear off the wrappin'
I'll make a splash on the Hudson
that's how I will arrive
Hey, do you have two tens for a five?
Roll out the carpet
Strike up the band
break into the best
champagne when I land
Beat the parade drum
hit all the bars
I want the moon and stars
But I'll take NY
I'll make it happen
Blow out the candlels
tear off the wrappin'
And I know someday
they'll have to name a street after me
right next door to old Franklin D


Tom Waits
Frank's Wild Years

brent hallard said...

Label--date and the usual stuff--(that would be the title), formaldehyde, and put it in a jar!

Content!

I didn't know this but there are five kinds of content.
You thoughts are one of them. The others, well, google it!
Anyway to get rid of all the plurality stuff you have to get back to nothing. And as nothing is empty all the five come together as one. How about that!
And the dude that figured that one out gave up a fortune!
Silly!

vita sackville-west said...

Content is not so simple.
My poor Clive Bell. He was overshadowed by Duncan Grant for Vanessa's affections. Anyhoo...

thriftstoremodernist said...

oh yeah.......content. like an erik parker?

kalm james said...

Content, content we want content. What is content? Content is ineffable. Maybe you don’t want content you want narrative, or you want a story, or a moral, a sign, a nice little bow tying up a tidy little package. Perhaps you’ve been watching too much TV and expect everything to wrap up in 30 minutes with a simple conclusion that can be appreciated without working too hard.

CONTENTS: anxiety, hipness, irony, anger, envy, greed, cultural references, masked sexual expressions, cynicism, designer colors, outré materials, smidgen of art historical echo.

SERVING SUGGESTIONS: place on canvas, hand on wall of trendy art gallery, stand back and accept adulation.

CAUTION: Please do not use if seals to packaging have been broken or, contents have passed freshness expiration date by 15 seconds. If consumed after this, don’t panic, call art therapist, wash out eyes with saline solution, type snarky response on art blogs and avoid bright sunshine till next Thursday’s openings in Chelsea. Bitch about other painter more successful than you are.

marisol77 said...

kalm down james, just really bored of this mode of thinking...or not thinking. it does match my couch though.

closeuup said...

we gotta get these motherfuckin snakes off this motherfuckin plane!


In this painting the content is the complexity.

closeuup said...

I've had it with these mother fucking snakes on this mother fucking plane!

thats what he said

zipthwung said...

I will chew your arm off

kalm james said...

Snakes ar our friends, we should try to understand them and figure out why they would ever want to harm us. I got bit by a painting once, took stitches and a tetanus shot. Less Bloomsbury, more Deadwood.

kelli said...

Zip you brought up a good point: Pollock WAS TRYING. As much as I like to make jokes about him it's funny that his name has come up as an antithesis to lightweight product so often in the last few discussions.

kelli said...

And Kalm James those sound like the ingredients of Romanticism and Surrealism not contemporary art product.

David Coffin said...

Pleaze, how I can find good, fresh focus groups for pre-testing ingredients in “contemporary art product”? I like to broaden appeal without disturbing existing customers...can u help? Possible without adding new product lines/repackaging??

kelli said...

Add lots of preservatives. This stuff has a shelf life of exactly 5 years. Don't add too many gums and resins, you want your artist's statement short.
sugar=sex
guar gum=cartoon imagery
trans fat= gratuitous brushstrokes
vitamin C= cash

Mark said...

better in repro.

JpegCritic said...

I really like that Larry Poons. He must be on preservatives.

Is that something I can snort?

kalm james said...

They were the contents of CONTENT.
Contemporary "art product" is just a repackaging of the same stuff with a more extended justification and explination. Whose doing anything really "new"?

MSG = narcissism
Fiber = infantilism
Monosodiumglutamate = ignorance

kelli said...

My jokes are usually playful not cynical.
And wouldn't fiber be flat backgrounds ( you know filler)?
There isn't anything inherently gratuitous about any of the elements you mentioned above,(anxiety, anger, masked sexual expression) they are relevant to modern art going back to Romanticism.
And I don't think it is impossible to do anything new. Once again back to the question of who is really trying.

closeuup said...

It doesnt seem like your average cookie blaha could tell the difference between Poons and Lyon. Yet the consensus of the "painters" here seems to be that Larry is the real deal and Lyon is a flash in the pan? What exactly is the difference you see? Dont count the backstory, just with your eyes...

JpegCritic said...

How's this for new?

kelli said...

Closeuup the graffiti thing rings bells and I guess prejudices for me. Then I started thinking about Dash Snow who uses the reference in a more interesting way. We were talking about this before with Japanese artists who use cleaned up hentai imagery, the reference being better than the fine art version.
I'm not a real "painter" BTW. I could paint in a tuxedo.

painterdog said...

Dash Snow????
that hack.
his work is c.r.a.p.

JpegCritic said...

whatever man. his photos rock.

Cooky Blaha said...

drag me through the mud please
the dif is quite obvious of course
this kinda reminds me of some christian schuman
fuck it..Im sleepy

brent hallard said...

the difference is:
risk and the result fall short with Lyon, at least on jpeg.

Lyon appears quiet competent: this image a little heavy-handed, the space a little oppressive, like, you know who could breathe in all that... the marks come across as repetitive (a hand that knows what it's doing and too much--perhaps).
Now all these little furrows and frowns at Lyon could be turned up.
Yeah!
(Phew, I was getting all depressed there for a moment)
Yeah, me too, but getting back...

There are no rules.
There is, however, a voice.
And when the voice says 'make a painting' painting gets... somebody makes.
When a voice says' take a risk', risk takes.
And when a voice says 'up the bar'. And the bar upper ups it, bar gets up.

A guy gets up at the bar. Ok could be a gal (it's hard to tell these days). And the dude sitting next to him or her turns and whips 'Where do you think you're going?'
The dude up, stops, grins, eyes narrow, 'I just need go, I need to leave this place. That's all!'.
Guy sitting, or 'sitting guy' whatever you like, tells it, ' You going to miss it all'.
Standing had already left.

That's another voice.

Why is Poons better?
IMO
The risks are greater. He's not necessarily making a better painting, in the normal sense, he's risking a painting. And he's putting a lot of knowledge at risk.
And he just gets home with it.

Have to admit this is a funny post, and really the Lyon is OK!

closeuup said...

I was going to answer my own question, things-that-go-brent-in-the-nite. But you said what I was going to say, i think, space and voice. ok. thanks.

kelli said...

P dog Snow is young..too soon to judge and at least he is trying to do something unique with it. Falling flat on your face gets more points from me than sitting on your ass or laurels whatever.

kalm james said...

Oh man, cum on news photos, someone call the Saatchi collection, I’ve got a whole studio they might be interested in.

I like kelli’s point that it’s about trying, not necessarily about being new. Poons could have stayed with the dots for ever. He didn’t (although you could probably afford to take chances if your paintings are going for half a mill). Lyon might be due for a change but maybe not. A lot of dealers will dump you faster then a cold turd if you change too much, consider it unprofessional, especially if you’ve established a recognizable brand. Between Poons and Lyon, I think it the difference between analog and digital, some people still like the sounds of scratch vinyl, others like the crispness of bits. Lets see how a Lyon wears in thirty years.

thriftstoremodernist said...

thirty years? who gives fuck? its painting. (and im a hypocrit) people will have retro gif animation projections in their bathrooms. lyons is a player and hes gonna keep playin. i wouldnt expect anything new from him unless he decides to switch to video. painting is fashion is artifact of small increments of time. flashes in the pan are stills of a larger dialogue.

JpegCritic said...

you got that kind of cumpulsive shutterbug finger
and access to the goods? Letz see your collection.

Anyone who's delved in photog knows how precious
both can be; they shouldn't be belittled.
Framing is just art cum icing on the cake.

Imagery is sometimes nothing but bravery.
But better.

painterdog said...

pictures of your friends throwing up while slumming is not art.

kelli said...

when slumming is part of living and living is part of art. and as to not caring in 30 years people made art when the plague wiped out 1/3 of the population of Europe and we still care about what's left. it's all that's ever left.

JpegCritic said...

#1
To say his photos rock is not to say anything
about art.

#2
Everyone who hasn't done it believes they
know everything about photography.
And believe me. I can tell. It's like roaming
through the moma and hearing someone
say their 'grandchild can do that'. Don't
worry though. Your viewpoint your fault
it's fed to you by the photo industry.

#3
back to the first point. Photography in contrast
to painting, enjoys the position of a medium
that can be enjoyed, read or consumed thru many
more channels than the party-line
'but-is-it-art-or-not' culture. It doen't have to be art.
(oh my god, it's not art...wtf(!?))

In other words, they can rock without being
formally convincing. Cuz they rock in other ways.

#4
I first saw Snow after getting familiar with T richardson...
heir to fashion's Helmut Lang. I realized that Snow was
the 'real thing'.

JpegCritic said...

Actually, come to think of it,
I saw snow before Richarsson.
And I remember not knowing
how to classify him until richardson
(plz not goldin -- that'd be insulting)

painterdog said...

I'm not asking is photography art or not. That's an old argument that does not hold water anymore.

But in all due respect Nan Goldin, did this kind of thing over 20 years ago and she did it better and with more soul.

A guy taking photos of his friends being stupid is good photography?

In my opinion its not, I have seen enough of his work and to me its not very well done or interesting. I just don't care about his life or his friends getting fucked up, the work does not even ask me to care or think about it for more than 30 seconds, its so adolescent.

Jim Goldberg is the 'real deal'.

painterdog said...

haha I just mentioned her.
I'm not a big fan of her work but some of it seems to get past the bad photography aspect and to me it makes you think about the people in the wolrd she is making pictures of.

Snow does not do this, its just 20 somethings acting like they are still 16.

David Coffin said...

Why is Poons better?

“He seems to be operating on a level beyond his obvious strategy.“
I still enjoy summing it up for myself this way. Because it ain't ABOUT the F’ing Strategy, as far as I can see. ANY strategy can serve as a way to get beyond the strategy; that seems perfectly clear... And what else is a strategy for, anyway? If it’s not about something more than product design, fa’gedda boudit.
Maybe Poons’ strategy is less obvious, as well? Maybe his “strategy” can be seen to be evolving as it goes, can be felt to be dropping away now and again... Feels that way to me. I enjoy imagining it coming into being, the more so the more I look; the Lyon eventually just makes me tired. (There are many Lyons’s that hit it better for me than this one...)


“I can't totally articulate it which might be part of the appeal.”
Hmmm, I hope so. Isn’t that why it’s there?

Pretty lame as a bit of writing about art, I suppose, but for me, these off-hand comments really resonate. I find them actually handy. They point at the really interesting things in paintings: the stuff that can only be articulated by paintings. The stuff that shuts down endless internal verbalizing. What kelli said works for me as very useful writing about making paintings.

Being ABLE to articulate “why” in writing, or reading anybody else’s writing about it, no matter how incisive/articulate/brilliant/honest/surprising/stylish/whatever..., isn’t going to help me paint any better; at least, it hasn’t yet, even tho it’s often felt as if it might while it was happening; I believe I’ve learned that it can’t. It just adds to my collection of verbal art-nuggets, which I enjoy collecting, to be sure, but they’re ultimately just breaking my teeth, resisting digestion, piling up, getting tripped over, useful only in other contexts. I have to forget ‘em to get on. Because jellied nuggets about why paintings “work” are obstacles to better paintings. They sit like poison toads on top of the tools, trying to lick your hands, leaving blisters...

Seeing the two pieces together IS really interesting; THAT might help me paint better.
Or maybe not. But something seems to shift in my paint-brain as I look at them together. The shift is towards getting busy: Good art leads to more art.

Obvious, I’m sure. But thanks anyway!

JpegCritic said...

Pdog,
Um... are you sayin that you can't get off
on snow's photos?
Cheers man.

painterdog said...

yes, but I also think the aesthetic he is going for is kind of lame.

Its more than me not getting off on them.
They fail because they try to hard.
He's just not a very good photographer.
I'm not sure he cares about that.
Does it matter, I think it does.
Learn the craft, just don't take polaroids of your friends gettin off.
If your in your 20's I guess I can see the attraction.
Look at Danny Lyon's work from over 40 years ago, its still fresh, and well done.

cha said...

How about UK photographer...www.dannytreacy.com. "them" series.

kalm james said...

Larry Clark did “Tulsa” 1963-1971, set the precedent for Golden, Snow and all the down and out, “slice of life” drugged up, self destructive kid photos.

Picasso said something like “they blind the magpies to make the birds sing better, they should cut the tongues out of painters to make them paint better”. “Don’t talk paint” was the mantra of many of the profs I studied with. Problem was then you get a bunch of folks who thought they should be idiot-savants. I’m tired of the “dumb painter” image, but realize that it is more important to paint than to write about it. It’s not about solving problems through literature, but solving problems through painting, at least for “painters”.

Avoiding strategy is a strategy.

zipthwung said...

here
Reminds me of the quilts of gees bend - or genremany :

here

high baroque

pattern

colonoscopy

and finally fractals

I like patterns.

didacticart said...

If we're lucky, as painters, there will never be an end to talk about painting. If there is a problem, it is that we don't talk enough, and especially about the important things. "Strategy" is one of the important things. It may even be the best place to look for content. This is not a cynical way of looking at art, it's realistic. As has been suggested in the KJames comment, condemning a dialog on strategy does hearken back to the "don't talk paint" mantra of the dumb painter school. We don't need any more dumb painting, there's plenty of it out there. The "dumb painter" strategy works best for the lazy painters who either can't, or don't want to consider their work in a broad context. Their paintings work best in a lazy, non critical environment and tend to be consumed by lazy, non critical, fashion oriented collectors. Just like the horny, exhibitionist, self destructive, youth culture oriented photos referred to in recent posts do best with the mid-life crisis suffering collectors of horny, fashion oriented, "I like to watch" expensive porn.

kalm james said...

didacticart, I don’t mean to condemn the discussion about painting, but there’s only so many hours in a day. As an art professional, I probably spend waaaaaay too much time thinking about, talking about, looking at, reading about and studying art, but I can’t help myself, I’m addicted. Still at the end of the day I’m hoping that it’s the stuff I did in the painting that lasts.

painterdog said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
painterdog said...

I was thinking of Clark as well.
My point is that these guys took their craft seriously.

Larry Clark and Danny Lyon are both self taught, meaning they did not go to art school.

Lyon has a degree in history.

Clark school of hard knocks.

My point is that they both have chops and care about the craft side of their work.

didacticart your comments are very on point to me, could not have said it better.

painterdog said...

Snow to what I can see has not much in the way of chops, and if you look at Clark's work from when he was in his 20's its much more acute, raw and very well made.

Which is why he's still around.

didacticart said...

hi KJ,

well, that's why we all need a break sometimes. It's important for our sanity. (Damn, don't read this blog! There's not enough time in the day!) That's why dumb movies (and dumb paintings) are important. We gotta get the snakes out of this mother fucking painting. But hey, if one is going to bother spending precious time reading, and posting...might as well try to advance the discussion...or else just take a nap, right?

kalm james said...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!

didacticart said...

well, yea, and the Yankees/Red Sox game is on too

zipthwung said...

colors and shapes

mmmm

kelli said...

-Just paint without thinking. Turn out endless piles of crap because really the art of various cultures and historical periods can be reduced to enjoyable objects consisting of formal elements which answer the burning existential question "does this need more green?"
-Stop turning out endless piles of mindless,thoughtless crap to satisfy amorous collectors and fill up shipping containers on the beach in Miami.
Mutually exclusive sentiments?

zipthwung said...

I was just reading about Heidegger. Didn't get that stuff in class - the class being just about the theory. I live in fear of being alienated from the Jungian subconscious.

"Mass demonstrations must burn into the little man's soul the conviction that though a little worm he is part of a great dragon"

kelli said...

Well Heidegger was a Nazi and Althusser killed his wife.
Jeannette Winterson is even more anti-essentialist or nominalist than I am. Thinks the whole backstory is garbage.

JpegCritic said...

what's with that didactic moralizing comment that
suggests those photos were made to satiate horny
collectors in mid-life crisis? Pleaze. leave such tired
comments to your PTA meetings. I doubt he was thinking about
collectors as he shot them. I think we all have
a good enough tiime entertaining our own horniness.
Clark? yeah right. Maybe by association of genre,
but in style, early informal work of Teller maybe. Lastly,
I refuse to think of those photos soley through the
framework of art, collecting and historical precedents.
His compulsion to shoot doesn't seem generated
by such frameworks. -- yielding a freshness that
allows for such nice shots as the dog on the trash heap --
an image that it points back to the maker in so many ways--
None of those ways I feel, have anything to do with art.

kelli said...

I get the wole "amorous" collector thing from people too. People who care about money more than I do. "I'll get you my pretty and your little dog too".
-Manichean insistence that art should be pure
-obsession with the market and collectors
Another set of mutually exclusive sentiments
And people are just comfortable with Larry Clarke because we've already digested him but if Mapplethorpe were alive he would still scare the shit out of people. Isn't that one thing we want from art- that is has as much power as the day it was made.

painterdog said...

This is truning into photographersNYC.

Anyway Mapplethorpe was not only challenging us he was also a great photographer.

There is also Joel Peter Witkin to ponder.

I don't think people are to comfortable with Clarke just yet, his film Ken Park, 2002 was banned in Australia in 2003.

poppy said...

i have never received proper instructions from a painting - have often led me away from the correct path in life..still i return seeking wisdom and guidance..like a dumb fucking alien..

closeuup said...

Ouroboros on a plane.

David Coffin said...

“-Just paint without thinking. Turn out endless piles of crap because really the art of various cultures and historical periods can be reduced to enjoyable objects consisting of formal elements which answer the burning existential question "does this need more green?”

True, words take up little room, on a beach or in a mall. But they aren’t the only proof of thinking. Nor are they necessary to a “burning” relationship with art, or to grokking other cultures; they’re a parallel universe. I’m rather fond of ‘em, actually, and always carry some around, even when looking at paintings. But I do also love those experiences that leave me momentarily speechless...
Dumb doesn’t only mean stupid; surely a parliament of painters should know this better than most?

But of course, writings about art, about art-making, about reacting to art, are often marvelous, illuminating, artful, maybe even necessary. Personally, I can’t resist ‘em, tho I prefer looking at art, when I’m not actually trying to make some. And I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t enjoy listening to painters yammer on...
But art writing/talking turns me right off whenever it feels like it proceeds from some hidden or overt terror that, without a buttress of clever, or even better, “difficult,” words, art, esp. painting, all by itself might turn out to be not worth doing, even shameful. When it starts to imply that, without some proof that the painter has a head full of approved words and suitably startling concepts to go along with this slightly regrettable taste for toying with colored muck, he or she is nothing but mindless-decorator-scum, well, I loose interest.
Really, are expressions of great loathing necessary to prove great love?

David Coffin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
David Coffin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
David Coffin said...

A breakfast fractal for zip’n’Giles

dharmabum said...

I don't look to art to answer any questions, burning or otherwise. 'The rose grows, there is no 'why." I love being blindsided- usually it's about discovering something I knew/felt but didn't know I knew/felt.

Anyone who is/was shocked by Mapplethorpe needs/ed to get out more. 'Piss-elegant' is the term I think Dave Hickey used. A bullwhip up his ass, Oh My! Those lilies sucked. I'll take any of Edward Weston's peppers over anything that guy ever did, gay clan approval notwithstanding.

no-where-man said...

snakes on a blog - that phone app. is killer...


I am totally over the guilty academy-zation of Art/market. The Artworld used to be a place for marginized lifestyles and money to thrive not a dime store.

didacticart said...

Save my moralizing for the PTA? Why...I don't even have Kids, but maybe I'll go to some PTA meetings anyway, and spread my backwards theories on everything from the importance of book burnings to the need for protecting our children from video games and internet porn.

no no no, I'm as hip as you are JPEG, I'll show you!

Let's you and I organize a drunken, nude pillowfight. Document the whole thing, and make a killing on the art market. I mean it...why party for the sake of partying? We'll make it look as authentic as possible, we'll recruit a bunch of "Kids" from the craigslist "casual encounters" listings, and just have a big orgy, shoot it, and sell it at Luhring Augustine. Teen porn is so hot.

JpegCritic said...

Lets!
Don't forget to invite the milfs from PTA.

didacticart said...

hahaha...I like it

no-where-man said...

hum, that sounds like my summer. minus the camera and the gallery. party for partys sake - ever try it. glamor is freedom.

kelli said...

Milf always sounds filthier than it is.

painterdog said...

Edward Weston, so we seem to be on a theme...
deminishing talent.

Weston is a icon of modern photography.
Mapplethorpe was good, the ass shots not his best moments.

Weston was better, but he was there first, as was Dorothea Lange.

A man in a class of his own, Robert Capa. Now that guy could party.

JpegCritic said...

zzzzzzzzzz. This is coming from someone who acutally knows how to operate a light meter and handle film, grind paints with muller, acidic oil-- all that mess...

And what a democratizing thing it must have been, when the technology unleashed mass-manufactured paint to the throng, and later, mass-manufactured brownie cameras, point-and-shoots, lomos, holgas, polaroids, sensors, et al.

The democratization of any medium demands a change in perspective -- artistic or otherwise. It demands, essentially, a necessity to accept the veracular of the 'amateur' as a formidable mode of 'speech' -- as capable of communicating something essential about humankind as any other mode of speech. 'Amateurs capable of what? Oh my... ' Get used to it.

Weston, and even Witkin makes no sense in a discussion centered around Snow, because the tools are so far apart we may as well be talking about different mediums.

'um they capture light...' Yeah, but that's all there is in terms of similarity. View cameras are completely different tools than polaroids, and both attract or at least, DEMAND, different sensibilities. Hence. Vernaculars are different. The process is different. The opportunities are different. The fact that they both fall under the aegis of photography is an unfortunate misleading conception.

Dorothea Lange is closer to Snow's project, if it can be called that for my purposes -- But, it's essential here, to know the difference between large format photography and polaroid -- in terms of mobility, precision, range of sensitivity, resposiveness, availability... fuck the differences are immense! The difference is not qualitiative. Both simply work within and exploit the traits inherent in the medium. And the vernacular developed around the medium.

Photography, just like painting, is best appreciated when it can be appreciated in context.

painterdog said...

I know all this, the different between large format, and how technology has affected the medium.

I was not talking about it that context.

Snow's work is kind of boring,and seems lazy.

But, I don't think he cares, at least that's what I get from his work.

I was using Weston as an example of technique, and craft.

I think your leaning to the idea that anybody is an artist. Which I don't agree with, anybody can't be a dancer or musician, so why is art different?

New tools like cell phone cameras and video are changing the way media and photo-journalism is done, that's a given. This is moving into the realm of art making.

I'm talking about learning how to make good images, which from my vantage point Mr. Snow does not seem to do.

I don't know, I have disussed this with a photographer friend of mine and hes on the fence with work like Snow's.

Although he thinks its banal and just not as good as other people doing the same kind of work.

So hes kind of half off the fence I guess.

painterdog said...

Get used to what fucking bad crap passed off as art because everyone and there mother has paint and cameras.

I don't think so.

Art needs some criteria to stand on.

By your definition everyones home movies is great cinima.

Democratization comes with responsibilities.

Without this its anarchy which I am sure some people think is a great thing. But it gets boring after a while.

poppy said...

we can stop worrying because pretty soon someone will locate the artist gene and develop a quick and easy way of checking for it///without needles and stuff, hopefully they can do a quick scan.
this way we will know who the frauds are without all this endless discourse..

kalm james said...

It was stated at an Art Workers Coalition meeting in 1968 that anyone who calls themselves an artist is an “artist”. Jerry Saltz said during a TV interview that the deal has been made that whatever an artist says is art “is art”. Being an artist I hereby declare that from this moment forward everyone is an “artist”, and everything is “art.”

Now that we’ve got that problem out of the way, we can get down to the nub of the conundrum which is not what is art or who is an artist, but what is “Good Art.” Anybody got a list of rules for that one?

Who says artists ain’t got no POWER?

no-where-man said...

the idea is anyone has the potential to be an Artist but only certain people activate it. also that it can happen to anyone at any time in life, it is kinda biblical. further that people can act as a conduite and that Art can travel with an almost kinetic resonance... also that the ART may be an energy not altogether preceptable in the after Art Artifact to the average viewer.

JpegCritic said...

back to my point #1, above:
>> #1
>> To say his photos rock is not to say anything
>> about art.

Alright then, to put an end to this conundrum:
I'm into dogs on trash heaps.
There. I've said it.

zipthwung said...

I think I broke my vernacular.

I was watching a little of band of brothers - had to leave when everybody started getting the thousand yard stare, you know , the shell shock. I used to get it riding 45 minutes home on the school bus. Its a great place to be if you go to the right place.

Then I watched Hostel. Now this painting reminds me of Hostel.

"Nature abhors a vacuum"
as Jerry Saltz says.

clement said...

Poons: variations, unpredictable, playful, draws you in deeper

Lyon: too similar shapes, boring, flatter(to me), heavier, not of one mind (or too much of one dull mind)

dharmabum said...

"You crack me up"
as Roberta Smith says.

kelli said...

"as above so below" as Martin Kimmelman says

poppy said...

i was looking at the sun set yesterday and it was insane how quick one impression changed into another and i thought i will never see that ever again...
as i says - you can count on art..

no-where-man said...

don't snort the brown powder Hermes Trismegistus says

painterdog said...

It was stated at an Art Workers Coalition meeting in 1968 that anyone who calls themselves an artist is an “artist”. Jerry Saltz said during a TV interview that the deal has been made that whatever an artist says is art “is art”. Being an artist I hereby declare that from this moment forward everyone is an “artist”, and everything is “art.”

The above is biggest bunch of BS.
Its an obnoxious and condescending statement.

zipthwung said...

"Hundley could be embracing the avant-garde esthetic of anti-form. Or his free-form assemblages could be whimsical records of a consciousness overtaken by a fantasy world in which all hierarchies have dissolved. The artistic machine, then, produces a product that is unstable to the point of willed inconsequentiality. "

I can't tell if that is serious or not. Maybe its both.

Im gonna call this type of procedural heuristic "cosmic copulation"

here

zipthwung said...

Cosmonanism

kelli said...

Onan the Contrarian

Ursula's Dad said...

hard to disagree. sarah tsetse sze wins in a battleroyale. in the steel cage match- i put my money on bullmarket stockholder.

painterdog said...

@#%*@#$%+**#@!!!

JpegCritic said...

Throng and me.

Me, and a throng.

Me, in a throng.

Join me, painterdog.

brent hallard said...

Jeez I tend to agree with U'sD ... word joke 

kalm james said...

Doctor, doctor, harsh rebuke from p-dog!

Code Blue!!! Nurse, rush this boy to the emergency-room. We’ve got to perform a sense of humor transplant before it’s too late. Push a dose of irony and satire in his IV. Luckily we’ve recently had some fresh donors who won’t be needing their organs of jocularity anymore.

painterdog said...

I have a sense of humor.

I also have some strong opinions on some subjects.

The idea of anything an "artist" decides is art is therefore art is silly to me.

It's old dogma from the 60's and its a failed one at that. Like marxism.

You don't have to agree with me james, as I don't have agree with you, its called having a conversation.

Oh no sarcasm... sorry its the lowest form of humor, but it is humor.(more sarcasm) have to stop...

If I hear any good jokes I'll let you know.

kalm james said...

p-dog, I thought you might be pulling my leg just a bit. I agree with you (about the boundaries of “art”) I was just trying to extrapolate the above quotes from people who should know, (not me). This goes to the discussion of Duchamp’s ready mades and the ideas about a lot of the trendy photography being hailed today and the idea of “quality” and its universal appeal. One guys shit is another guys fertilizer. Oh and I like sarcasm and low humor, can't stand the Marxist dogma that overwhelms msot current critical thought, and respect strong opinions (though sometimes they make for tempting tease targets). Paintin time!

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